The Red Pill: Lotus Eaters Speaks to Cassie Jaye

Cassie Jaye went into her landmark 2016 documentary as a proud feminist, determined to expose the misogynistic, dark underbelly of the men's rights movement. She came out transformed, publicly stating, "I no longer call myself a feminist."

Famously shunned by mainstream media, Jaye became the target of a smear campaign but stood firm. "It turns out I did meet my enemy while filming," she later noted. "It was my ego saying that I was right, and they were subhuman."

The Red Pill was "a watershed moment," Janice Fiamengo told LE. "It awakened many people who had never heard or cared about men's issues to the reality of male suffering." Issues such as workplace deaths, suicide, sentencing disparity, child custody, false rape allegations, criminal court bias, boys falling behind in education, homelessness, and the lack of resources for male victims of domestic violence, among others. "It was impressive to see a feminist face up to and acknowledge men's issues," said Justice for Men and Boys founder Mike Buchanan. "There has been nothing like it since."

Here, Jaye talks to LE about The Red Pill's unwavering relevance, how the film saved people's lives, the curse of toxic anti-male rhetoric, and how feminism gets motherhood all wrong.

LE: The Red Pill has opened countless men's and women's eyes. When did you realise you created something very special?

CJ: People might guess it was after the premiere or when the first major wave of positive media attention started, but I don't think it was either of those points. I think it was actually months after its release when old friends of mine were finally getting around to viewing the film, and they shared the impact it had on them. I had friends whom I had known for decades, some were outspoken feminists, some were completely apolitical, but they expressed how the film was a life-altering event for them. For some, it gave them clarity on things they had personally experienced or witnessed in their past. For others, it gave them new compassion for people in their lives. Those "audience reviews" moved me the most because I deeply care about those people and could see the massive shift the film had on them. Of the strangers that reached out to me, the ones that really opened my eyes to the impact this film has had were those who shared that they were on the verge of committing suicide, and this film gave them hope and made them feel seen and cared for. Therefore, they chose to get help rather than follow through with their suicide plans.

There were also several women who worked at women's domestic violence shelters who reached out and praised the film for unearthing issues they'd witnessed in their work - of men and boys being abuse victims but having to turn them away because there were no services available for them. It's always validating to hear from people who've dedicated their lives to women's rights and then praise this film. I also had many celebrities and public figures, famous singers, filmmakers, actors, sports stars, and even a tech mogul worth 11 figures, reach out to me personally praising the film and thanking me for it. It was especially flattering since they appeared to be politically ambiguous and weren't seeking anything from me, just expressing their appreciation. So, it really felt like genuine respect from some highly successful people. I was really just surprised they even had heard of the film, let alone watched it, and then further took the time to reach out. This film has had such a wider reach than I ever dreamed was possible for a low-budget, independent documentary film.

LE: Some radical feminists find it challenging to care for their sons. LE interviewed a former woke academic who spoke of the prevalence of these sentiments within gender studies. It was, in fact, the repeated preaching of motherhood/the home as a prison that clashed with her own mother and made her question the entire narrative.

CJ: Back when I was making the film, I don't think I realized how much feminist ideology is against the role of a mother being the primary caregiver as I do now. I became a mother four years after the film was released, and becoming a mother has given me better insight into the differences in men's and women's biology and why traditional gender roles formed. Women have natural proclivities when becoming a mother that make them more likely to be the primary caregiver. They want to comfort their crying baby, they want to witness every interaction their baby has, and if they are breastfeeding, it is hardwired in them to be the parent that wakes up at all hours of the night to feed their baby. There is also the physical toll pregnancy, postpartum, and breastfeeding have on a woman. Many women feel pressure from society, their employers, and their social network to resume their pre-pregnancy lives and be as committed to work, available, and physically capable as they were before they got pregnant or had their baby. But most pregnant and postpartum women struggle with resuming work in the same way after having a child, and it's hard for them to share that because they don't want to fail feminism by admitting they can't show up for work in the same way that they did before having children.

Feminism's 'female empowerment' mantra, unfortunately, shames many mothers out of their natural mothering impulses. Feminism tells them to hang onto their jobs, saying it is their "independence," their "identity," but these messages are at the expense of what is best for the child, and often it goes against what the mother would choose for herself if she could have the choice to stay home with her child. I think most working mothers want to be with their children more and they dread leaving their 3-month or 6-month-old baby for over eight hours a day to resume their career. Unfortunately, in the United States especially, we have a system that makes it extremely difficult for a mother to stop working and to stay home with her child. I've been a full-time, stay-at-home mom (SAHM) with my toddler son for almost 3 years now, and it is not easy at all. It is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. It is hard to live on one income, it is hard to get a break just to quickly rest or do mundane things that have to be done to run a household, and the village that it takes to raise a child doesn't feel available anymore, or at least it's not free. Perhaps once that village consisted of caring neighbours who checked on you, extended relatives who lived in the same town or even on the same street, church communities that banded together, and other generous people who swooped in to help families in need. Now, the village that helps raise a child comes with an invoice, and affording that support on one income, or even two incomes, is extremely difficult.

And then there is the anti-male rhetoric that has permeated our mainstream culture. I'm in a few online mom support groups, and I can't count how many times I have heard women grieve or even express rage in finding out that they were pregnant with a boy. I was acutely aware of those comments every time I saw them, and I never once saw a mom express anger or grief towards finding out she was having a girl. As a former feminist, I am aware of the historical prevalence of parents being upset over having a baby girl. One overt example is China's one-child policy from 1979-2015, where couples were only allowed to have one child, and most hoped for a boy, usually because they wanted the son to work to provide for and care for the elders, and also to carry out the family name. China's extreme gender preference led to ultrasounds being banned at the time, so couples wouldn't find out the sex of the baby until they gave birth. We readily see gender discrimination towards girls in that example, but when so many mothers are angry about being pregnant with boys today, society doesn't see that as an issue worth pointing out.

It is an issue though. I've heard so many pregnant women having boys say, "It's up to us to make sure they're not assholes." During my pregnancy, I had multiple strangers ask me if I was having a boy or a girl. I'd tell them "Boy," and they would say "I'm sorry." I've seen baby boys dressed in onesies that say "The Future Is Female." How would that boy feel later, seeing a baby photo of himself and realizing his parents dressed him in that shirt? Imagine if the genders were reversed in any of these scenarios.

One news story that always sticks out in my head to illustrate the mistreatment of boys in the name of feminism is a story from Bainbridge Island, Washington State, where a Kindergarten teacher banned boys from playing with Legos and only let the girls play with Legos. The teacher's reasoning was that if girls are behind in STEM education, and Legos are a great toy for advancing STEM education, then she's only going to let the girls play with the Legos in the name of 'gender equality.' As the mother of a son who loves Legos and all types of building toys more than anything, I would be furious to know he'd be denied beneficial learning tools to prop up girls at the expense of boys. Most of these inappropriate actions taken against boys in childcare or school settings are never revealed to the parents, let alone reported on in the news. It's a shame that the pendulum has swung this way when what we really need is respect, fairness, and justice for everyone regardless of gender.

LE: Are you brave?

CJ: The definition of 'brave' is being ready to face and endure danger or pain. I suppose I was ready to face danger, or at least the backlash that came when the film was released because The Red Pill was at last-ditch-effort status, about a year before it was released. I was ready to throw in the towel on filmmaking and move on with my life, so I really didn't have much to lose if the film failed or if my filmmaking reputation was shattered because I was ready to stop anyway. In that way, I don't know if I was brave or simply could not be harmed because I had nothing to lose.

I started making the film in 2013. I filmed for a year and then attempted to complete it without any outside help or financing, but that was hard because I had over 100 hours of footage on a complex topic, and I didn't have the financial resources to do it justice. I applied to all the film grants I could for over a year and was denied funding every time. I reached out to previous investors in my films, but they all said no. I reached out to organizations, media outlets, and journalists who supported my previous films to see if they would spread the word in any way, and they all said no. One media outlet went as far as to say, "If your movie trailer showed the men's rights activists being violent, then we'd support it."

For years, it felt like such an uphill battle, and I was losing steam to continue. I knew I had something important, something valuable to share, but no support. I was ready to quit the film and filmmaking in general because I'd used up all of my savings on this film, but I knew I had one last option which was to crowdfund the film online. I really didn't think it'd work, but to my utter shock and astonishment, the last-ditch effort worked. I was able to keep full and complete creative control over the film. I completed the film I always wanted to make, and when the film was released, I was okay if it didn't do well because my goal wasn't to make money or pay back investors. Just completing the film to my liking was my version of success, and I had achieved that. I really did not think it would make the waves that it did, though.

I knew there'd be people who liked it and hated it, but I didn't think it'd be such a large pool of people, like millions worldwide. That was a big surprise. Throughout the years since its release, I've learned that Newton's law that every action or force has an equal and opposite reaction applies here too. Every surge of negative press the film received would then lead to a surge of support, and that positive support would then lead to more negativity. It's been a cycle ever since the film was released, and understanding that cycle has made me less attached to either outcome because it all evens out.

So, any kind of bravery I could be said to have is really just me trying to master my own calm in a very unpredictable, uncontrollable political media storm. I have become very good at filtering out what I know dysregulates me; that's why I don't go on Twitter anymore, and why I don't do any press appearances.

LE: You showed the likes of Paul Elam, Erin Pizzey, and Warren Farrell to be 'nice,' 'normal' people.

CJ: So many of the people I'd interviewed, like Erin Pizzey, Dr Warren Farrell, and Marc Angelucci, had dedicated a huge portion of their lives to this research and outreach, so I'm glad I could play a role in bringing their work to an even wider audience.